tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post123660250227358762..comments2024-03-28T09:22:36.967+13:00Comments on Offsetting Behaviour: Banning the bulb - the information critiqueEric Cramptonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15831696523324469713noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-64798875875960068312012-09-19T04:35:22.699+12:002012-09-19T04:35:22.699+12:00If true, another reason to prefer a straight carbo...If true, another reason to prefer a straight carbon tax to bans on particular kinds of lightbulbs.Eric Cramptonhttp://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-72944516944288439152012-09-19T03:43:14.775+12:002012-09-19T03:43:14.775+12:00OK this Disqus thing doesnt work for the other c...OK this Disqus thing doesnt work for the other comments, they just disappear, though I tried altering, shortening, cutting links etc<br /><br />You should anyway be aware that the whole "emission saving" hypothesis is thrown out the window by how coal plants actually work, even newer so-called cycling ones, that besides have less emissions <br />- continually ignored by politicians, along with much else as per comments on your other post (if THOSE comments are still there, sigh).Lighthousenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-17803041004278637882012-09-19T03:33:17.549+12:002012-09-19T03:33:17.549+12:002. The Actual energy/emission saving of switchin...2. The Actual energy/emission saving of switching light bulbs<br /><br /><br /><br />Keeping the correct Focus:<br />The savings for individuals are less for many reasons, that won't take up here, but includes the heat issue you mention, CFL/LED power factors (not same as power rating) and much else.<br />What is important for Society is in any case not a Big Brother concern of what Johnny saves in switching his bedroom bulb, but what Society saves from a Society law, assuming - as covered - such measures are appropriate in the first place.<br /><br /><br />And the savings are negligible....see other comment links for source references.<br />"The total reduction in energy use would be 0.54 x 0.8 x 0.76% = 0.33%, <br />This figure is almost certainly an overestimate, <br />particularly as the inefficiency of conventional bulbs generates heat which supplements other forms of heating in winter.<br />Which begs the question: is it really worth it? <br />Politicians are forcing a change to a particular technology which is fine for some applications but not universally liked, and which has disadvantages.<br />The problem is that legislators are unable to tackle the big issues of energy use effectively, so go for the soft target of a high profile domestic use of energy<br />... ..This is gesture politics."<br />Cambridge University Science Network on the EU ban, similarly for USA etc given the references, and no doubt similar NZ and elsewhere too.<br />- but that is far from all...Lighthousenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-61617537813972038642012-09-19T03:26:36.258+12:002012-09-19T03:26:36.258+12:00I see you are focusing on energy use and emissions...I see you are focusing on energy use and emissions, fair enough, <br />but one should perhaps consider the overall situation first...<br /><br /><br />1. Energy saving is not the ONLY reason for buying a bulb - or anything else (cars, houses, electrical products) - you want to use!<br />Forcing a given product to use less energy affects other parameters such as performance, appearance and/or weight etc as well as price.<br />See Ceolas.net which also has an extensive light bulb section.<br /><br /><br />Turning to electricity:<br />The first question is if NZ citizens should be forced to save electricity at all.<br />If there is no society shortage, given the great use of renewable sources you mention, and new sources on top of that, it is surely debatable.<br />If, in turn, they do have to use less electricity - especially from coal, also for emission reasons (CO2 relevance or not):<br />Light bulbs don't burn coal or release CO2 gas<br />Power plants might, and might not<br />If there is a problem - Deal with the problem<br /><br /><br />The light bulbs are not banned for being dangerous.<br />They are banned to save electricity<br /><br /><br />If saving electricity is such a big deal for NZ, <br />then the electricity - or the coal used - could be taxed<br />= let people themselves decide how to use the electricity they pay for, again given that incandescent lighting, like all lighting, has its advantages!<br /><br /><br />Even if the bulbs had to be targeted, they could themselves be taxed, such that NZ gov directly makes money (unlike from a ban) while "people not just hit by taxes" in that some money could go to lower the price of alternatives.<br />Taxation still unjustified, compared to market competition measures (support new alternatives to market but without continuing subsidies) - but preferable for all sides, compared to bans.Lighthousenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-43348703065303804382012-09-19T03:20:41.206+12:002012-09-19T03:20:41.206+12:00I commented on your former post before I saw this...I commented on your former post before I saw this, and further comments seem problematic.<br />More extensive answers to this on your old post , depending on what shows up hereLhousenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-44398735811621005882012-09-19T03:16:21.252+12:002012-09-19T03:16:21.252+12:00Having commented on your former post I saw this, a...Having commented on your former post I saw this, and further comments seem problematic.<br />= more extensive answers to this on your old post , depending on what shows up hereLighthousenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-16288650742403848882012-09-19T03:08:54.576+12:002012-09-19T03:08:54.576+12:00Having just commented on the earlier post it seems...Having just commented on the earlier post it seems superceded..<br />I see now that you have chosen to focus on the energy and emission side, <br />as you say " the "ban stuff" kinda requires that you know everything about everything"<br />Still, as some commenters also bring out, this should surely first be put in an overall perspective..<br /><br />1. Energy saving is not the ONLY reason for buying a bulb - or anything else (cars, houses, electrical products) - you want to use!Forcing a given product to use less energy affects other parameters such as performance, usability, appearance and/or weight etc as well as price.See Ceolas.net which also has an extensive light bulb section.<br />Turning to electricity:The first question is if NZ citizens should be forced to save electricity at all.If there is no society shortage, given the great use of renewable sources you mention, and new sources on top of that, it is surely debatable.If, in turn, they do have to use less electricity - especially from coal, also for emission reasons (CO2 relevance or not):Light bulbs don't burn coal or release CO2 gasPower plants might, and might notIf there is a problem - Deal with the problem<br />The light bulbs are not banned for being dangerous.They are banned to save electricity<br />If saving electricity is such a big deal for NZ, then the electricity - or the coal used - could be taxed= let people themselves decide how to use the electricity they pay for, again given that incandescent lighting, like all lighting, has its advantages!Even if the bulbs had to be targeted, they could themselves be taxed, such that NZ gov directly makes money (unlike from a ban) while "people not just hit by taxes" in that some money could go to lower the price of alternatives.Taxation still unjustified, compared to market competition measures as referenced (support new alternatives to market but without continuing subsidies) - but preferable for all sides, compared to bans.Lighthousenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-89910771723931007642012-09-18T20:07:22.884+12:002012-09-18T20:07:22.884+12:00The marginal unit of electricity here often is coa...The marginal unit of electricity here often is coal rather than hydro, so differences in demand at the margin can matter. Even better if we switched from coal to fracked natural gas though.Eric Cramptonhttp://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-18024999514625690062012-09-18T16:14:34.925+12:002012-09-18T16:14:34.925+12:00dx.comdx.comLatsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-51798378157059193812012-09-18T15:34:49.147+12:002012-09-18T15:34:49.147+12:00Did I miss something? how is it that this is low h...Did I miss something? how is it that this is low hanging fruit in a country with electricity generation largely sourced from 'renewables'. Given the profile of our energy generation banning these light bulbs would be the exact definition of a cynical gesture. I switched to them for cost savings but the failure rate is just too high (tried many brands). Bring on cheaper LED bulbs.<br />PS<br />You can add jerky making to the list of other uses not accounted for!Dennisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-44928149312528280322012-09-18T14:51:33.816+12:002012-09-18T14:51:33.816+12:00Very interested in where you can get an LED "...Very interested in where you can get an LED "bulb" for $5.Tim Makariosnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-65877276321566472132012-09-18T12:10:13.526+12:002012-09-18T12:10:13.526+12:00I've been trying the hybrid ones where you buy...I've been trying the hybrid ones where you buy a base and plug in a small halogen bit. Burned a pile out for not realising that the things are wrecked if you touch them in installing them; for others, the base unit won't fit in the socket because of flanges on the sides. Will give some LEDs a go know that I've found an online supplier that'll ship for $5 what here costs $100 (I can't believe the insane fixed costs of NZ sometimes). But I don't know what'll work best and I really value being able to experiment with it.Eric Cramptonhttp://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-78073476142109367102012-09-18T12:08:11.160+12:002012-09-18T12:08:11.160+12:00I'd have had no clue about that one. But I kno...I'd have had no clue about that one. But I know that my "make sure the prices are right and let people make their own choices" policy doesn't require me to know about that one, or the myriad other reasons folks might have for choosing one lighting source over another. But the "ban stuff" kinda requires that you know everything about everything. Hayek's pretence of knowledge critique looms large.Eric Cramptonhttp://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-48350781889999749712012-09-18T11:51:13.136+12:002012-09-18T11:51:13.136+12:00We've been finding that the LED lights we had ...We've been finding that the LED lights we had installed a few years ago aren't fit for purpose. The transformers keep overheating and the electrics are too fragile to withstand the aftershocks. So, the bulbs aren't lasting longer than incandescent ones, and we are probably going to have to replace the hardware. It doesn't seem to be a good use of money or non-renewable resources.Billhttp://gropingtobethlehem.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2830084253401570472.post-60362602607291798282012-09-18T10:35:35.636+12:002012-09-18T10:35:35.636+12:00"A ban says there is no possible reason for a..."A ban says there is no possible reason for a consumer to prefer an <br />incandescent bulb that can outweigh the difference in power cost, and <br />that just isn't true."<br />For example, some people on the autism spectrum: http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/onpoint-being-a-dick-about-earth-hour/?p=100138#post100138Tim Makariosnoreply@blogger.com